OOXML: DIS 29500 Ballot Resolution Meeting (BRM) Approaches 
2008-01-07, 18:34
With a new year it seems to be a blogging tradition to make some predictions for the coming 12 months. A number of predictions have duly materialised in the blogosphere about DIS 29500 standardisation. At the risk of pouring cold water on some of them, here is a round-up of the state of things in the run up to the BRM in Geneva.

BRM delegation sizes fixed


National Standards Bodies have submitted their proposed delegations for the BRM to JTC 1 and, as anticipated, some have been reduced in size to fit the venue, which takes 120 people.

In all, 40 countries (plus Ecma) are sending delegations, and 14 of them (of more than four people) have been scaled back. The result is that delegations will vary in size between 1 and 6 people — this (precedented) adjustment hardly represents the sort of “disenfranchisement” that was being anxiously predicted in some quarters.

Given the purpose of the BRM the pattern of attendance, as expected, reflects a skeptical stance towards the DIS: 27 delegations are from countries that either disapproved or abstained in the September letter ballot.

Critical role of the Heads of Delegations


It is something of an honour, in my opinion, to be appointed Head of Delegation (HoD) by one’s National Standards Body, and at the BRM this role will carry greater than usual weight. A few points are worth making about HoDs’ responsibilities.

First, the HoD will be responsible for registering votes at the BRM (and it is worth re-iterating that any voting at the BRM is voting on the text, not voting on approval of the standard);

Secondly, in any voting, the HoD (in common with the whole delegation) will be presenting their National Body opinion, not their personal one. This (which is normally the case anyway) is especially emphasised in the JTC 1 directives, which state that BRM delegation members are “representatives who are well aware of the NB’s position”;

Finally, the HoDs play an important role in maintaining order during the meeting, since they are responsible for running their own delegation and keeping it in order.

Random agendas?


The agenda for the BRM will be published soon, probably later this month. While the details are yet to be finalised it is clear that the agenda will not be “random” — in a five-day meeting of 120 people that would be a recipe for disaster. It is also clear that the mainspring of the agenda will be the body of comments submitted by National Standards Bodies in the 2 September ballot. A secondary consideration will naturally be the responses the submitter (Ecma) has made to those comments. Assuming comments are partitioned into common clusters, (e.g. by parts of the DIS) then within each cluster there are likely to be three categories of submitter response:
  • straightforward acceptance (everyone agrees on the comment, its NB-proposed remedy is adopted as is);
  • modified acceptance (the gist of the comment is accepted, the proposed response differs from that originally suggested);
  • non-acceptance/non-response (the comment is not accepted).
There is little to be gained dwelling in areas where everyone is in agreement, and so I expect the meeting to move quickly through batches of comments which have straightforward acceptance. This will leave time for review of the more contentious responses. Inevitably, there is likely to be insufficient time to review all comments in detail – in this case, some will be held until later in the BRM; others will be deferred to maintenance (should the DIS get approved).

Kyoto aftermath


Following informal discussions with some NBs in Kyoto, I think it is perhaps worth re-emphasising that the BRM will be a meeting which concerns itself with the DIS 29500 text, the comments NBs made on it in the 2 September ballot, and Ecma's proposed responses to these comments. The FAQ already spells out some topics which are out-of-scope, and in addition the following should be noted:
  • the JTC 1 Directives make clear that comments NBs may have after 2 September are out-of-scope: “comments received after the normal voting period will not be taken into account, except that they will be submitted to the appropriate SC Secretariat for consideration at the time of the next review of the IS in question” (13.6)
  • the behaviour and conformance level of any applications which claim to implement DIS 29500 is irrelevant to the standardisation process. ISO/IEC standards have to be complete in themselves without reference to applications, to avoid the possibility of difference (and thus divided authority) between the text itself and any so-called “reference” implementation. In other words, MS Office will not be discussed.

Other Geneva meetings?


It seems the OpenForum Europe is organising a meeting to coincide with the BRM: same time, same venue. It’s not clear from the announcement what time of day this seminar is scheduled to take place, though an invitation is issued to BRM attendees. I will be disappointed if those involved in this event expect BRM delegates abandon their work in session to attend this meeting, as that can only diminish legitimate participation in this important ballot resolution process.

hAl 
2008-01-08, 09:23
About that openforum europa meeting.

The fact that the openforum europe site on it's frontpage shows no less than 3 links to the noooxml campaign and several more to organisations that have active campaigns against OOXML says a lot about the attitude of that forum.
Their meeting at the same time as the BRM can only be seen as disruptive at best or even as plainly ment to undermine the BRM.

Strangely enough they have a fairly neutral article about the BRM by Alan Bell stating they are neutral on the BRM but plastering your frontpage with multiple links to the nooxml campaign does not make you look neutral at all. The article suggest they want to focus the BRM on important issues but I have little doubt that they will only discuss issues when they think it might convince participating countries to say vote no on the standard.

The openforum europa meeting meeting most likely will only be about emphasing on certain issues and creating mistrust on the Ecma provided solutions on those issues.
I have little confidence in them supporting any kind of resulotiuns to issues but only to come up with critisism on the BRM resolutions.

Having put IBM's VP Bob Sutor, a very outspoken anti-OOXML voice by IBM on their speakers list in my eyes only confirms their attitude towards OOXML and the BRM.

hAl 
2008-01-08, 09:30
Will the agende handle voting on each comment individually ?
That could take a long while even everybody agrees on 90% of the issues.

Administrator (Alex Brown) 
2008-01-08, 10:25
@hAl

There doesn't have to be voting: the whole meeting can proceed by consensus if necessary.

If voting does have to happen (it is by simple majority, BTW), I'm planning to minimise its impact on the schedule by batching resolutions.

- Alex.

Alan Bell 
2008-01-09, 21:07
My article was basically the home page of dis29500.org which was just republished by The Open Forum Europe (with permission). They do indeed have a position on the subject of DIS29500, they don't want it as an international standard. Neither do I. My view is that a well structured BRM concentrating on the real problems is in everyone's interest. There were fears of a filibuster concentrating on the many trivial issues then lobbying for vote changes on the basis that everything discussed was resolved. That was the situation I wanted to avoid, it would make everyone look bad and make a mockery of the process. I am very pleased by Alex's structure to the meeting. It has to be neutral and seen to be neutral. Bias and corruption would lead to terrible publicity for Microsoft and a terrible standard for the world to conform to. A well structured neutral and productive BRM will be better for Microsoft, irrespective of the result, and if the standard is passed it will be because everyone present agreed that it was worth having. If the DIS does not become an IS then Microsoft will have the opportunity to walk away, have a think about things, and put some engineering effort getting their software to support the existing standard rather than spending all their time preserving the idiosyncrasies of their legacy formats.

I am not a member of The Open Forum Europe, although I count them as friends, I do not speak on their behalf. I don't think their meeting is in any way intended to disrupt the BRM. Far from it. I think they want to be able to offer information to anyone who wants it and perhaps to help communicate what they can about the progress to the outside. I know they were as disappointed as I was to find that the BRM would be a closed door meeting with no transcript or reporting.

carlos 
2008-01-10, 14:10
>The openforum europa meeting meeting most likely will
>only be about emphasing on certain issues and creating mistrust
>on the Ecma provided solutions on those issues.

hal, don't be so negative :-)

if you are near Geneva at this date.. i recommend you to go to openforum ... there will be interesting talks... i.e: vinton cerf, do you know this guy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinton_Cerf


carlos

Andre 
2008-01-10, 15:23
What about Sweden? I feels so unjust to exclude them from the BRM, just because of a corruption case closely tied to that process which made them unable to vote. And if the BRM agreed on a text, how can it be implemented in Sweden then? The ISO procedures need careful rethinking. Why is a body that submitted an abstention different from an ISO member that did not cast any vote at all?

I wonder why ECMA gets a seat in the BRM. It is no national Standard board and submitted the standard. So how can it also review it?

Certain nations get their "South perspective" say on OpenXML but Western industrial states do not get reasonable representation. Representation weight should be closely tied to GDP. ISO rules are formally fine with the vendor capture that took place. ISO had totally insufficient defense mechanisms. It was not designed with a global company in mind.

"Finally, the HoDs play an important role in maintaining order during the meeting, since they are responsible for running their own delegation and keeping it in order."

As a nightmare scenario: Mr. Steve Ballmer himself will join the meeting as a Cote d'Ivoire HoD and hammer his shoes on the table to give Africa a say in the DIS29500 process.

Administrator (Alex Brown) 
2008-01-10, 18:02
@Andre

> What about Sweden? I feels so unjust to exclude them from the BRM, just because of a
> corruption case closely tied to that process which made them unable to vote. And if
> the BRM agreed on a text, how can it be implemented in Sweden then? The ISO procedures
> need careful rethinking. Why is a body that submitted an abstention different from an
> ISO member that did not cast any vote at all?

The case of Sweden is exceptional. Evidently, there is a chain of events there and the result is that Sweden is disenfranchised. The ISO/IEC process expects countries to participate in areas in which they have registered an interest, and such countries they should abstain when they have no opinion on a ballot.

> I wonder why ECMA gets a seat in the BRM. It is no national Standard board and submitted
> the standard. So how can it also review it?

Ecma is one of many non-country bodies that have ISO/IEC membership. They attend the BRM in their capacity as submitter, in order to answer questions NBs may have about the text. They do not vote on approval of the DIS.

> Certain nations get their "South perspective" say on OpenXML but Western industrial
> states do not get reasonable representation. Representation weight should be closely
> tied to GDP.

It is a defining characteristic of International Standards that they are internationally informed. If you're in search of a standards body where having most money is a winning argument, there's a few I can think of ...

> ISO rules are formally fine with the vendor capture that took place.
> ISO had totally insufficient defense mechanisms. It was not designed with a global
> company in mind.

The ISO/IEC process is itself a standard under control of its members. The JTC 1 Directives are at the start of a major re-examination process and I personally will not be surprised if we did not see some big changes in due course, at both international and national levels.

> "Finally, the HoDs play an important role in maintaining order during the meeting, since
> they are responsible for running their own delegation and keeping it in order."
>
> As a nightmare scenario: Mr. Steve Ballmer himself will join the meeting as a Cote
> d'Ivoire HoD and hammer his shoes on the table to give Africa a say in the DIS29500 process.

People are going to have to behave. Monkeying around will not be tolerated.

nksingh 
2008-01-10, 18:51
"Bias and corruption would lead to terrible publicity for Microsoft and a terrible standard for the world to conform to."

"And if the BRM agreed on a text, how can it be implemented in Sweden then?"

I think an important counterpoint to both of these sentences is that the world doesn't _have_ to conform to IS 29500 in any particular way. Sweden and other countries are free to choose whatever ISO standard they wish among the extant choices. If software vendors find it difficult or impossible to support IS 29500, then there won't likely be many high-quality implementations, and that would be a point against choosing the standard for a particular country. The same goes for 26300.

If I were on a committee choosing a document standard for a large organization, I'd take a wait-and-see approach to this little format war. Stay with the current formats (no government is really vocally sufferring from document incompatiblities) and see which ecosystem looks stronger 3-4 years after the standards have been formalized.

carlos 
2008-01-10, 20:17
"I think an important counterpoint to both of these sentences is that the world doesn't _have_ to conform to IS 29500 in any particular way."

strange logic: doesn't care if ISO deliver rushed, poor enginereed , bad quality standards, because "the world doesn't _have_ to conform to IS 29500 in any particular way"

applying your logic nksingh, if i see any chemical, food or safety standard labeled "ISO standard" i would be worried ... why we need standards if just throwing some money you can just *buy* a standard ( like Microsoft and ECMA: in less than one year a TC was formed, 6000+ pages "reviewd", edited and published as a brand new ECMA "standard" , how easy !!! quality ? implementability? openness? repetibility? no luck, keep participating )

hAl 
2008-01-11, 00:31
I wondered how Sweden managed to get a vote of like 23-4 for OOXML (or something) suddenly wrong on the basis of a double vote but not during the meeting but after the meeting took place. A vote that even when excluding both votes would have been overwhelming in favour of OOXML.

However when reading that the chair in charge of the meeting and therefore the vote of meeting was actually against OOXML it seemed a lot less strange that the vote would be fully cancelled and in stead an abstain vote would be given to ISO.

@Carlos,
Why shouldn't I be negative.
A group that wants a no vote on the standard (no matter what the outcome of the BRM) that invites people and organisations that stronly oppose the OOXML and tries to influence BRM members by inviting them during the period of the BRM for a meeting of their own.
A seriously offensive move towards the ISO proces trying to influence the BRM members.
I find it a disgrace that organisations that oppose a company try to influence ISO procedures by inviting ISO BRM meeting participants during their work for ISO to participate in a meeting that actually has no interest in the work ISO does because the outcome of the BRM is of little or no interest to them as their sole reason for being against the format is not the format itself but the existance of a certain company named Microsoft.

If the outcome of the BRM would be a much improved and very acceptable standard format they would even be likely to oppose it more rather than less.




The Open Sourcerer 
2008-01-11, 08:57
@hAl
"A group that wants a no vote on the standard (no matter what the outcome of the BRM) that invites people and organisations that strongly oppose the OOXML and tries to influence BRM members by inviting them during the period of the BRM for a meeting of their own."

But how about the Corporation that wanted a Yes vote (no matter what the individual NBs felt), stuffed NBs (and SC34) with "yes" men (NBs)?

"A seriously offensive move towards the ISO process trying to influence the BRM members."

You failed to mention the seriously offensive organisation that, is a convicted monopolist, and has caused, what up until this debarcle began, a generally good and non-confrontational International Standards setting process, to be completely wrecked?

"I find it a disgrace that organisations that oppose a company try to influence ISO procedures by inviting ISO BRM..."

Many more people find what M$ has done to the ISO process, and their abuse of the ISO Fast Track, much, much more of a disgrace... If no-one stands up to M$'s tactics by exposing them, we would now already have a very badly written standard with many hundreds of errors and inconsistencies as IS-29500.

"If the outcome of the BRM would be a much improved and very acceptable standard format they would even be likely to oppose it more rather than less."

Pure conjecture. You do not know this to be a fact; unless you own a Crystal Ball that is...


Graham Taylor 
2008-01-11, 14:33
As Chief Executive of OpenForum Europe (OFE), I am responsible for the Briefing. Let me answer your queries. OpenForum Europe (OFE) is committed to seeing the BRM run professionally. We have planned the Briefing so there is no conflict with BRM schedules and the actual topic of the roundtable is neither of a technical focus nor is it directly related to the DS29500 specification, but addresses longer term issues of the process of standard development, the quality of standards and the implications for innovation and economic growth.
OFE, is 100% independent, not-for-profit and business focused. It is highly supportive of truly Open Standards (our work in Brussels is testimony to that) and we have been strong proponents of a single Open Document Exchange Format. We have been supportive of the continuing development of ODF, and we have grave concerns on both OOXML itself, the market need claimed (and the resulting market confusion and costs), and the fast track process undertaken by Ecma/ISO in respect of it. The BRM only covers one aspect of those concerns and we will continue to work to ensure that the full picture is adequately debated and understood at all levels. As part of our continuing programme in Geneva we may well be running other initiatives, but these will be fully transparent, and organised in such a way that any external meetings (which might potentially attract delegates attending the BRM) again are timed not to conflict with official meetings.
Best Regards

Jesper Lund Stocholm 
2008-01-11, 21:30
Graham,

for those of us attending the BRM but would still like to hear what you guys have to say - will we have to settle for hall-way chatter?

I am sure you understand that the work at the BRM has priority over OEF.

:-)

Thanks,

Jesper Lund Stocholm

Jesper Lund Stocholm 
2008-01-11, 22:02
Andre,

"Representation weight should be closely tied to GDP"

Actually I feel just fine with the representation rules of ISO - they basically ensure that countries like Denmark are just as important as U.S. or China. Do you seriously think that for each vote Denmark has, US should have 68 (13,000 bn vs 190 bn) ?

Carlos,

"strange logic: doesn't care if ISO deliver rushed, poor enginereed , bad quality standards"

Please, open the ODF-spec and start using it as reference to implement a solution creating ODF-documents. I find it hard to find answers to very simple questions like "what are the mandatory parts of an ODF-package", "How do I embed an custom XML-file in the ZIP-package" or "which parts of SVG has been modified to be included in the "SVG-compatible namespace of ODF" (I would need this information to be able to figure out which parts of my existing SVG-app I can reuse and which part I will have to modify).

I think you will find yourself trying hard to find the answers you need and will really soon turn to how e.g. OOo has done it to figure out how to do it. Since ISO, as Alex Brown has earlier noted, generally avoids reference implementations (a standard should speak for itself) it is quite contradictory that the ODF in parts is really vague on key issues.

I am fairly new to the whole ISO-system and how it works, but my impression is this: To deliver products (in this case, standards), the optimal case is when "the world" has a common interest in creating a standard. When all countries work together with a common goal, the best standards are created. However, it seems to me that the ISO-system has two scenarios where it is really difficult to deliver standards:

1. When "the world" is highly divided as with DIS 29500 (too much noice)
2. When a large part of "the world" doesn't care as with DIS 26300 (too little noice)

With the first it is difficult to deliver high quality because that requires reason and deep thoughts ... which is almost impossible when everyone is shouting at each other ... and with the last it is difficult to deliver high quality because it also requires participation and careful review - and if only few people care, it won't get careful review.

:-)

Rick Jelliffe 
2008-01-14, 01:03
Alex: Are you saying that easy issues have priority of resolution over hard issues?

This seems to be the most reasonable way forward (or, at least, I cannot think of a better way), and it certainly would mean that the issues can be gone through fast, but to what extent does it risk that the deepest issues of difference will be deferred to the end of the list?

In other words, isn't it a recipe for making sure that changes that are unpalletable to ECMA (recognizing that many changes are palletable to ECMA) are downplayed? Some people might say that it is the issues which have most contention which should be prioritized?

I suppose the thing is that delegates need to do their homework before the meeting, which certainly would include sighting and if possible having a view on the editor's proposed resolutions (i.e. the ECMA comments). The less time that disposing of agreed issues takes, the more discussion time that difficult issues may have.

I suppose from your comments that you will come to the BRM with candidate lists of the uncontentious issues, which in fact would largely be drawn from the editors/ECMA comments which start with "agreed".
Is there some scope to have break-out working groups to vet these on day 1, for example?

Administrator (Alex Brown) 
2008-01-15, 10:30
@Rick

> Alex: Are you saying that easy issues have priority of resolution over hard issues?

That might be a practical consequence of my plan, yes.

> This seems to be the most reasonable way forward (or, at least, I cannot think of a
> better way), and it certainly would mean that the issues can be gone through fast,
> but to what extent does it risk that the deepest issues of difference will be deferred
> to the end of the list?

There is a risk, but if we didn't run through the easy issues first there is a worse risk (IMO) that the meeting ends without these generally agreed changes being resolved on.

> In other words, isn't it a recipe for making sure that changes that are unpalletable
> to ECMA (recognizing that many changes are palletable to ECMA) are downplayed? Some
> people might say that it is the issues which have most contention which should be
> prioritized?

If the meeting can get through the uncontentious stuff fast enough, then we can move on to other issues. In my view the contentiousness of an issue is not a good measure of its worthiness to be discussed. So, for example, the name of the thing ("Open Office XML") is a very contentious issue, and something that Ecma have resisted altering. I've no doubt the meeting could spend a long time on this topic if it was allowed to, but I'm not sure it would be time best spent! Part of my job as convenor is to exercise a certain amount of "editorial control" over the course of the meeting - something I fully expect to be a thankless task ...

> I suppose the thing is that delegates need to do their homework before the meeting,

YES, NBs need to pre-decide their stance on the Ecma responses, and the delegates need to be thoroughly familiar with the issues.

> which certainly would include sighting and if possible having a view on the editor's
> proposed resolutions (i.e. the ECMA comments). The less time that disposing of agreed
> issues takes, the more discussion time that difficult issues may have.

Quite.

> I suppose from your comments that you will come to the BRM with candidate lists of
> the uncontentious issues, which in fact would largely be drawn from the editors/ECMA
> comments which start with "agreed".

I think an "uncontentious" issue has to be fairly limited in scope, Ecma have to have "agreed" it, and their implementation needs to reflect that agreement in an explicit way.

> Is there some scope to have break-out working groups to vet these on day 1, for example?

Quite apart from anything else, for logistical and procedural reasons there won't be any break-out sessions at the BRM.

Gabe Terry 
2008-01-18, 11:29
Alex Brown,<br><br>

It is disturbing that the ISO would allow this specification to proceed without attention to the individual details, and that easy issues have priority of resolution over hard ones. It implies that the ISO has no true concern for the quality of specifications that move through the process, as long as the appearance of thoroughness can be maintained.<br><br>

The ECMA submitted the extraordinarily large text, and they should not receive special treatment to accommodate the large number of comments resulting from that size. The BRM only being given 5 days is also troubling, as was the original approval of the fast-tracking of the 6000 page specification.<br><br>

I understand that you are tasked with an unenviable duty, but please keep in mind that even though the circumstances and pressures placed upon the ISO to approve this specification are unprecedented, it is not the actions of those supporting the approval of the standard at any cost that will be remembered for any impropriety. It will be the actions of the ISO that will be remembered.<br><br>

Thank you, and Good Luck

hAl 
2008-02-08, 15:34
It apears now that the meeting of the OFE is scheduled for monday evening and the entire tuesday and wednesday.

I can only conclude that the entire meeting is planned to keep BRM participants away from the BRM.
I would suggest that the ISO governing body could possibly state something about how they feel about organisations sponsored by large companies who have an interest in filing a standardization proces that are inviting ISO members deliberatly at times that are scheduled for ISO activies/work.

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