ISO committee takes full control of OOXML 
2008-04-09, 22:16

Harmony? Patrick Durusau, Jean Paoli and Brian Jones

Since my last blog entry a lot has happened. The big story of course is that DIS 29500 gathered enough votes to pass as an International Standard. Although the margin of votes in its favour was (surprisingly to me) reasonably comfortable, the overall mood of acceptance seems less of a "yip yip yahoo!" and perhaps more of a "well, alright". Everybody is now watching very carefully ...

Resolutions


Now however, the whole process moves forward into a much more significant stage. At the just-finished SC 34 meeting in Oslo a number of resolutions were passed relating to 29500. The most significant of these is resolution 4, "Creation of Ad Hoc Group 1 on ISO/IEC 29500 Maintenance", and it's worth looking at it in some detail. I will go through the complete resolution below with some explanation of my own ...

Background

SC 34 is the JTC 1 designated maintenance body for ISO/IEC 29500 (Office Open XML file formats).

simply states the fact that JTC 1 have handed full responsibility for the standard over to SC 34. We then have some informative text setting out SC 34's current orientation:

The passage of ISO/IEC 29500 has instituted a new era of standards activity in SC 34 related to document formats. ISO/IEC 29500 does not represent an isolated phenomenon, since SC 34 is also responsible for ISO/IEC 26300 and for interoperability between these and other projects.

SC 34 envisages the creation of three distinct working groups that meet the needs of:
  1. ISO/IEC 29500
  2. ISO/IEC 26300
  3. Work on interoperability/harmonization between document format standards
and wishes to incorporate existing expertise on these standards.

For these reasons, SC 34 hereby establishes an ad hoc group pursuant to the JTC 1 Directives, clause 2.6.2, for investigating how the first of these groups may be set up most effectively.

So, SC 34 has a plan: it envisages taking control of OOXML, then setting up a maintance procedure for ODF, and then working on cross-standard initiatives. As the first part of effecting this plan it is setting up a temporary group (in ISO parlance an "ad hoc group") to investigate how OOXML can be maintained. The rest of the resolution sets out the terms of reference for this new investigative group.

Terms of Reference

The terms of reference for the group are as follows:

The first of these terms of reference set out the task that the group is to perform:

The task to be completed by the group is to advise its convenor on creation of a document proposing structures and mechanisms for onward work on ISO/IEC IS29500. Onward work is defined as:
  • Maintenance as provided for by the JTC 1 Directives (in particular Section 15 - Maintenance of International Standards)
  • Handling new work items directly and exclusively related to ISO/IEC IS29500 (e.g. creation of new Parts of this Standard or evolution of this standard)

The proposal shall be drafted by the convenor as one or more resolutions (with supporting explanatory material) that may be discussed, revised and adopted by SC 34.

The ad hoc group should consider the following factors in making its recommendations to the convenor:

    a) A new working group should be created in SC 34 for the purpose of maintenance of ISO/IEC 29500 pursuant to Section 15 of the JTC 1 Directives for standards maintenance.
    b) Editors and editing teams should be nominated as well as mechanisms for the nomination of editors and editing teams for ISO/IEC 29500.
    c) Transparency of process, consistent with JTC 1 Directives, is a goal of the recommended process.
    d) Consideration should be given to how Ecma and ISO/IEC versions of ISO/IEC 29500 may be best kept synchronized.
    e) The proposal should recommend ways in which onward work on ISO/IEC 29500 may be carried out in as timely a way as possible, without recourse to the accelerated mechanisms of PAS or Fast Track procedures.


There are several things of note here. First is that the group activities are limited to OOXML only, and that the group will be purely advisory. It will advise its convenor who will weigh up the advice and report back to SC 34 who will in turn make a decision that heeds (or ignores) that advice.

Perhaps the most interesting thing here is the list (items "a" to "e") in which SC 34 gives a "steer" to the group on how it should be thinking about OOXML maintenance. What we learn from this is that the group should try to come up with a process that ensures maintenance activities are fully staffed, as open as possible, that keep Ecma and ISO versions of the standard in sync, and which sticks to the full rigour of normal committee working without any Fast Track or PAS oddities.

The later clauses flesh out some important further details.

2. The ad hoc group shall make its proposal to SC 34 for consideration at its plenary scheduled for 2008-10-01, at Jeju Island, Korea. A draft proposal shall be made available to SC 34 one month before the plenary.

sets the duration of the work. It will take place over the next 6 months or so and report in time for SC 34 to consider its findings at the next plenary.

3. The ad hoc group shall be open to participation from all SC 34 members, subgroup members, and liaison bodies. Participants shall be nominated by these bodies to the SC 34 secretariat in the usual way.

simply states that the usual people will be able to participate in the activity (SC 34 committee members, etc.)

4. The ad hoc group shall be convened by Dr Alex Brown, as nominated by the UK National Body (BSi).

says it is I who will be convening it - an honour indeed!

5. Administration and support for the ad hoc group’s activities shall be provided by the SC 34 Secretariat.

points out that our super-efficient SC 34 secretariat (of the Japanese NB) will be providing much needed assistance.

6. The ad hoc group shall arrange face-to-face, telephone and electronic meetings as required in accord with the provisions of the JTC 1 Directives. The first face-to-face meeting shall take place in early July in London, UK.

sets out some meeting details. The "main event" will be a two day meeting in London in summer.

and ... that's it. The resolution passed with unanimous support.

Bringing Ecma in


The above resolution says nothing of Ecma, since maintenance is now an SC 34 activity. Practically speaking, however, the Ecma TC 45 team are the guys who know more that anybody what is really going on with OOXML, so SC 34 issued a liaison statement (a fancy term for a "message") inviting these experts to participate:

SC34 recognizes that Ecma TC45 members have in-depth knowledge, technical expertise on ISO/IEC 29500 and will seek to preserve and allow for inclusion of this existing body of technical expertise in SC34. SC34 therefore invite Ecma TC45 members to attend and fully participate in ISO/IEC JTC 1 SC 34 Ad Hoc Group 1 as well as in any future working group that will be dedicated to the maintenance of ISO/IEC 29500. SC34 intends to organize an efficient and timely process for maintaining and handling new work items to insure the evolution of the standard in following the JTC 1 Directives.


This encourages inclusion of the TC 45 people -- but they will of course have no power of vote at any level in the process.

Short-term maintenance


While all this investigative work is going on to determine the long-term maintenance procedure for OOXML, there is a more pressing task: recording the defects that are currently known and being found in the OOXML spec. With this in mind, a second ad hoc group is being established for collections of comments.

ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC 34 establishes Ad Hoc Group 2 in accordance with subclause 2.6.2 of the JTC 1 Directives, with the following terms of reference:

  • Definition of the task:
    • To define and put into operation a mechanism to compile a list of comments on ISO/IEC 29500 received from NBs, liaisons, and the general public.
    • To publish the on-going list as an open document on the SC 34 website.
  • Time frame: The collection mechanism is to become operational within 90 days from the end of the April 2008 ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC 34 plenary. Once this is operational, collection will continue until a long-term maintenance process is operational.
  • Membership: Open to ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC 34 P and O members, liaison organizations, and subgroup representatives.
  • Convener: Makoto Murata (JP).
  • Meeting arrangements: Work will be handled primarily by email, with optional telephone conference calls at dates and times to be announced.


The main thinking here is that knowledge about defects must not get lost. This group, under the expert leadership of Murata Makoto, will make sure that does not happen, and that defects are carefully collected so that they might be fed into the onward maintenance process.

A little local difficulty


While all this work was going on, the OOXML backstory continued. In Norway there is a fuss that the NB (Standard Norway) did not adopt the recommendation of a technical committee. The situation was well explained by the excellent Lars Marius Garshol in his blog entry preceding the Norwegian vote. I can understand the crossness - I certainly would be miffed if our standards body (BSI) did not heed the advice of its technical committee, though in the UK case of course the technical committee recommended that BSI approves DIS 29500 ... What I find less understandable is how what is essentially a local spat (with SN rather obviously acting within its powers) has been blown up into something bigger ...


Steve Pepper

The demonstration passed off reasonably enough ... 100 or so geeks decamped from the adjacent open source conference to stand in the rain and wave placards while Steve Pepper had fun making a speech and brandishing a hairdrier (perhaps risking quips about 'hot air' in the process). There was some half-hearted chanting ("what's that smell? OOXML!"). Meanwhile some on-looking SC 34 people felt insulted. One neutral XML expert, who I know for a fact took a very close technical look at DIS 29500 asked "what are they saying? that we are incompetent? that we do not have the right to decide for ourselves?". Well ... were they?


Disharmony? the anti-OOXML protest

Standards of behaviour


Perhaps the most extraordinary document issued by SC 34 during this Oslo meeting was an "open letter", which received many signatures.

We the undersigned participants at this SC 34 meeting wish to make it clear that we deplore the personal attacks that have been made during the DIS 29500 standardisation project in recent months. We believe standards debate should always be carried out with respect for all parties, even when they strongly disagree.

We call on all organisations and individuals involved in SC 34 standardisation to support this view, and to refrain from initiating or engaging in any such personal attacks.

This content speaks for iself.

Wu MingShi 
2008-04-09, 23:44
Congratulation on your appointment as convener. Good Luck.

"Practically speaking, however, the Ecma TC 45 team are the guys who know more that anybody what is really going on with OOXML ..."

That is a joke, isn't it?? Don't answer.




Luc Bollen 
2008-04-09, 23:57
Alex, you commented on Andy Updegrove's blog that ODF made no progress at ISO since its approval in 2006:
"That's partly why ODF has remained buggy, and stuck at version 1.0 in ISO (no other versions are international standards). Nobody's happy about that are they?". I agree with you, but I think it would have not been appropriate to discuss both ODF and OOXML during the last 15 months. I cannot imagine the cacophony that would have resulted.

However, with the amount of energy being now enrolled to maintain (should I say correct?) OOXML, I'm afraid that ODF will again have to wait before making progress.

That's another drawback of having 2 standards to maintain.

And for the developers, more energy will be wasted for implementing support for the 2 standards, plus developing and maintaining converters between each version of them. What a pity !

All this to provide what Microsoft calls "choice". Except that Microsoft is supporting only OOXML in their products, not ODF ! That's a "nice" way to provide choice.

I really cannot understand your enthusiasm of being part of this game.


PS: I hope that, in return, Microsoft will spend as much effort for improving the ODF text than IBM and so many other people spent for improving the OOXML text.


Carlos 
2008-04-10, 03:58
"ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC 34 establishes Ad Hoc Group 1 ... ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC 34 establishes Ad Hoc Group 2 ... "

don't want to be pessimistic but i can't stop to think that you are starting to pay the expenses derived of rushed and premature standardization: groups and groups to try to fix the unfixable: a bad standard that doesn't deserve the name "ISO standard".





Mike Brown 
2008-04-10, 04:08
@Alex,

>> I certainly would be miffed if our standards body (BSI)
>> did not heed the advice of its technical committee

It would be nice to know what did go on at the BSI for it to change its "no" vote to a "yes". You say the BSI's technical committee recommended approval, whereas the UK Unix and Open Systems User Group (UKUUG) claims the opposite:

"We are very disappointed that BSI has chosen to take this decision against the advice of its technical committee." (Alain Williams, Chairman of UKUUG)

The BSI's official FAQ response, meanwhile, sheds little light on the matter. Sure, there's plenty of info on the rules and processes, but nothing on who did/said what, let alone why.

Cheers,

- Mike


Andrew Sayers 
2008-04-10, 04:51
People need to feel like things in the world happen for a reason, and for a lot of people, assigning blame is an all-purpose backup reason. It may not be exactly what the protesters were saying, but perhaps what you should hear is "we don't understand how things turned out this way".

Without wanting to disagree with the sentiment expressed, it seems like the open letter from the Oslo meeting was also an example of people casting blame when they can't explain actions any other way. It might be helpful to note that the bemusement you feel about personal attacks is comparable to the bemusement some people feel about a system that makes as much sense to them as a game of Mornington Crescent.

DIS 29500 has been an exceptional case in a lot of ways, but it doesn't strike me as a unique aberration. It seems to me that it's an early warning of what the standards world will have to routinely deal with in 10 or 20 years time, as other industries start to communicate the way the tech industry does today.

The impression I've got as an outsider is that the ISO is set up to teach dozens of interested professionals how the system works over several years, and is now being asked to teach thousands of lay people how the system works in no more than 500 words. I've been impressed by how the standards community has tried rise to this challenge, but it was perhaps too much of a mountain to climb in the time available.

This is a wide-ranging issue that I hope will bubble along quietly in the community for the forseeable future, but there's one final observation I'd like to make. For me, reports of the protest on Wednesday really symbolise the whole debate - professionals on the inside looking out, everyone else on the outside looking in, neither really able to understand what the other is saying. I think this dichotomy is caused in part because there's no "interested amateur" class, like stargazers or trainspotters. Interested amateurs form a bridge between the experts and outsiders in a field, and allow people to learn about a subject without having to debate people that are way out of their league (with the results we've all seen).

- Andrew

hAl 
2008-04-10, 06:59
Interesting developments.
I wonder how the cooperation between ISO/IEC and Ecma in 'your' ad hoc workgroup will evolve.
I hope it works out better than with ODF where the most current ODF version was never submitted to ISO so that for most implementations it seems totally unsure what ODF versions are supported.

A major issue will be to get out well planned/timed versions with both mainetance of defects and features because in Ecma they will have will want to have some control over the timing of new versions and the method of versioning new verions to be able to support those for instance in new office products like MS Office.

Administrator (Alex Brown) 
2008-04-10, 10:46
@hAl

I'm not sure it's a question of Ecma "cooperating" with SC 34 -- Ecma have been removed from the decision-making process which is now purely international. We (SC 34) do however want to welcome their OOXML experts.

My understanding is that for publication, Ecma will merely shadow what ISO/IEC does, and will have no "control" over any aspect even of this.

You're right: the "hard line" that SC 34 is now taking is in part a reaction to disappointment with how ODF has been maintained.

- Alex.

Felix 
2008-04-10, 10:55
What is the status of ECMAs proposed maintenance agreement?
Is is still on the table?



Administrator (Alex Brown) 
2008-04-10, 11:01
@Mike

I find it hard to understand what the UKUUG thinks it's playing at.

The statement from their chairman that BSI went against the advice of its technical committee is false.

What makes this particularly rich is that the UKUUG actually *had* representation on that very technical committee, but withdrew it mid-way through the 29500 project. If they had stayed, then they would have been able to make a material difference to the final UK position. However, rather than taking responsibility for representing their community, they instead abdicated this responsibility and have resorted to untrue and childish press releases from outside the process.

I hope they *do* have a barrister, as somebody there needs to grab some beards and knock heads together.

- Alex.

Mike Brown 
2008-04-10, 12:06
@Alex,

Thanks, as ever, for your response.

Can you tell us if the any more info is forthcoming from the BSI? Namely, what exactly was the vote of the technical committee? Was it close, or was it decisively in favour of approval?

Also, what was the constitution of the committee when the final vote was cast? Was it different to the committee that cast the vote in Sept 2007?

Cheers,

- Mike


Administrator (Alex Brown) 
2008-04-10, 13:09
@Mike

BSI committee members are bound by an agreement with BSI enshrined in a British Standard (BS 0).

It states: "committee members shall not disclose committee proceedings/documents to any body [...] without the committee’s express authorization".

BSI are also bound: "BSI shall not, save under the compulsion of law, give access to the minutes of its committee proceedings".

So no, you won't find out what went on in that technical committee. What is known, however, is that BSI have stated that a consensus position was reached, and BS 0 has a definition of consensus (which mirrors ISO's):

"general agreement, characterized by the absence of sustained
opposition to substantial issues by any important part of the concerned
interests and by a process that involves seeking to take into account the
views of all parties concerned and to reconcile any conflicting
arguments<br/><br/>
NOTE&nbsp;&nbsp;Consensus need not imply unanimity."

As I stated above, the one relevant committee composition change between September 2007 and March 2008 was that UKUUG withdrew. You will need to ask UKUUG why that was, not me. The composition of committees (i.e. who is represented) is not confidential, but the names of individual members are.

So (to answer the question behind your question) there were no membership oddities. I hope it is not being overly patriotic to state that I believe that the decision reached by BSI on DIS 29500 was the most technically informed decison that took place on this planet, based as it was on a very great deal of very good work by British experts who gave up a lot of free time to contribute, whistling Colonel Bogey the while.

Unlike in The Bridge on the River Kwai, however, I hope there will be no "what have I done?" moment ...

- Alex.

Wu MingSHi 
2008-04-10, 13:23
@Alex

I am sure someone already tried this, but would a Freedom of Information Act Request force BSI to disclose more information about the whole process?

@Bollen

I disagree with your statement implying that since there is two ISO Standards, developers will have to develop for both and create converters. Whether or not OOXML passed, the dominance of Microsoft Office will require implementation of whatever Microsoft had chosen as their file format. Converters _might_ not be necessary: Whether ODF or OOXML, one need to translate it into and out of machine representation. This ODF/OOXML->machine->ODF/OOXML can serve as some sort of converter at no cost.

Administrator (Alex Brown) 
2008-04-10, 13:30
@Wu MingSHi

I believe FoI does not apply to BSI (it is not government).

- Alex.

j 
2008-04-10, 14:25
Alex,

I find it amusing that you've quoted the definition that the BSI uses for a consensus. The BSI has a number of interesting things to say about standards and creating them. There's a couple though that it seems to have ignored with its approval of DIS29500.

I sent an email to the BSI asking about their decision on and how they were able to change from disapproval to approval. Below is some of the text I sent where I quoted from the BSI website and also from the www.xmlopen.org/ooxml-wiki site. I've yet to receive an answer though Lucy Fulton was kind enough to tell me that she's passed my email on to someone more relevant.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to comment on what I've said below. Whilst I can't expect you to answer the questions for the BSI, I would appreciate being able to see what your answers would be.

Regards,

j


What Is A Standard?
===============

1)What is a standard, according to the BSI
"Put at its simplest, a standard is an agreed, repeatable way of doing something. It is a published document that contains a technical specification or other precise criteria designed to be
used consistently as a rule, guideline, or definition. Standards help to make life simpler and to increase the reliability and the effectiveness of many goods and services we use."

2)ooxml-wiki on repeatability and specification
"Furthermore, if it were proven that an XML format is required for digital preservation, three further issues arise:
There is evidence that translating legacy MS Office file formats into OOXML does not provide a perfect replica of the original file, e.g. in the implementation of charts, breaking the requirement
that a record is unchanged from the original.
OOXML as specified in DIS29500 does not provide an explicit mapping of the legacy binary formats' layout features to the new XML format, instead wrapping them in elements such as 2.15.3.6autoSpaceLikeWord95 (Emulate Word 95 Full-Width Character Spacing). The "informative" guidance given for elements like this one contains thefollowing statement:
"To faithfully replicate this behavior,applications must imitate the behavior of that application, which involves many possible behaviors and cannot be faithfully placed into narrative for this Office Open XML Standard. If applications wish to match this behavior, they must utilize and duplicate the output ofthose applications. It is recommended that applications not intentionally replicate this behavior as it was deprecated due to issues with its output, and is maintained only for compatibility with existing documents from that application."
There are two possible readings of this text. Either 1) it is not possible to specify how to replicate this behaviour in any OOXML consumer, and therefore the legacy preservation goal of the standard
fails, or 2) it is possible to meet the goal, and this can be proven with MS Office 2007, in which case it is possible for the behaviours to be "faithfully placed into narrative" in some form because MS have done so within their product development group."

The main reason for DIS29500 to become a standard is to preserve existing and new documents. The wiki states that DIS29500 does not do that.

The "precise criteria" that are necessary in a standard do not exist in DIS29500 acording to the wiki, there is only "informative" guidance.

Can the BSI tell me how the approval of DIS29500 as a standard fits the BSI definition of a standard?


What Are The Benefits Of Standards?
===========================
3)What are the benefits of standards, according to the BSI

a) (2nd sentence) "Effective standardization promotes forceful competition and enhances profitability, enabling a business to take a leading role in shaping the industry itself."

and,

b) (last sentence) "Standardization promotes interoperability, providing a competitive edge necessary for the effective worldwide trading of products and services."

4)ooxml-wiki on interoperability
"OOXML has not yet been proven to be interoperable, as no conforming consumers and producers have yet been created. This claim cannot be made until more than one full implementation of an application
that produces and consumes conformant OOXML exists. This is made difficult by the problems with the conformance definition in Part 1 -Fundamentals as described elsewhere in these comments."

How can a standard promote competition when only one (potential) producer exists?

How can there be interoperability until there is more than one FULL implementation?

How many standards does the BSI approve that cannot be implemented by more than one producer?

Has the BSI tested any software that complies fully, or even partially, with the DIS29500 specification and does it have any plans to do so?

How can the BSI approve DIS29500 when it does not meet your own definition of "what is a standard?" and "what are the benefits of standards?"

Mike Brown 
2008-04-10, 14:50
@Alex,

You've not given much away here, but it's still more than one can glean from the BSI's official channels, so many thanks for that.

>> I hope it is not being overly patriotic to state
>> that I believe that the decision reached by BSI
>> on DIS 29500 was the most technically informed
>> decision that took place on this planet, based
>> as it was on a very great deal of very good work
>> by British experts who gave up a lot of free
>> time to contribute

You describe my own feelings exactly...only mine were felt at the BSI's original "no" vote, in 2007. I read through all of the BSI's open (read only) wiki back then, and I can't think of a time that I've ever been so proud to be British. It was a calm, considered and above all, technical demolition of OOXML as ever existed. You can understand, I hope, how people like myself are puzzled as to how and why the BSI got from there to here.


>> Unlike in The Bridge on the River Kwai, however,
>> I hope there will be no "what have I done?" moment ...

One of my all time favourite movies! 'Twas only three years ago, I think, that I was necking a cocktail in that bar in Kanchanaburi; the bar that shows The Bridge on the River Kwai every single night. (Its name escapes me now).

Sadly, the BSI's rules on (non)disclosure of its proceedings puts me more in mind of another of my fave movies:

The first rule of Fight Club is you do not talk about Fight Club
The second rule of Fight Club is you do not talk about Fight Club

Cheers,

- Mike



Administrator (Alex Brown) 
2008-04-10, 14:57
@j

I am in absolutely no position to speak for BSI. However, I can give a personal view.

> How can a standard promote competition when only one (potential) producer exists?

This is a myth. There are many potential producers of 29500 markup. I myself have personally been involved with systems which produce Word XML (2003 flavour) for use in commercial systems. It's quite hard, but perfectly doable.

(Oh, and before somebody asks I have also been personally involved with similar ODF-emitting systems too).

> How can there be interoperability until there is more than one FULL implementation?

Interoperability between XML formats is a question of two things: whether the target format is sufficient, and whether the source format is sufficiently specified. Have a good spec for 29500 will tend to increase the potential for interoperabilty, simply because developers will know what the structures in it "do".

> How many standards does the BSI approve that cannot be implemented by more than one producer?

This is based on the earlier myth; besides, application behaviour is a different topic to markup formats.

> Has the BSI tested any software that complies fully, or even partially, with
> the DIS29500 specification and does it have any plans to do so?

That is completely out-of-scope for this kind of ICT standardisation activity, and always has been. FYI, there are ZERO implementations of ISO/IEC 26300 (ODF) which exactly conform to that specification, so far as I am aware.

> How can the BSI approve DIS29500 when it does not meet your own definition
> of "what is a standard?" and "what are the benefits of standards?"

Well the best experts with access to the best evidence took a different view to you. What are you basing your opinion on? The main substance of your posting, which wheels out the old autoSpaceLikeWord95 stuff, misses the important fact that this feature (in common with all the crappy compatibility features) was specified in detail, and then hived off to a separate part of the standard at the BRM where it was marked "transitional". A conformance class was then introduced which made conformance to this kind of stuff distinct and optional. Given than the countries insisted on keeping these compatibility features there (to represent legacy content), that was a good engineering solution that got wide approval.

- Alex.


Alan Bell 
2008-04-10, 21:20
Thanks for the update. The open letter is interesting, in a "have you stopped beating your wife?" sort of way. I couldn't figure out quite whether it was aimed at one side or the other or if it was a general plea for moderation so I figured cross referencing the names on the letter with the attendees of the BRM and their affiliations should give me a clue. Seems like four Microsoft folk:

Mario Wendt
GERMANY Mr. Mario WENDT Microsoft Deutschland GmbH
Kimmo Bergius
FINLAND Mr. Kimmo BERGIUS Microsoft Ltd
Shahzad Rana
NORWAY Mr. Shahzad Rana Microsoft Norge AS
Jasper Hedegaard Bojsen
DENMARK Mr. Jasper Hedegaard BOJSEN Microsoft Denmark

One IBMer and one Open Source community member:

Jens Mikael Jensen
DENMARK Mr. Jens Mikael JENSEN IBM
Manu Setälä
FINLAND Mr. Manu SETALA COSS - Centre for Open Source Software

I would say that a 2:1 ratio in favor of Microsoft was about the same ratio to the declared interests of the attendees at the BRM (20:9 if I just count IBMers) so I think it is a general plea to cease personal attacks which nobody sensible would disagree with.

Interestingly it seems that Grantham Daniels and Dave Welsh signed the letter twice, I guess that isn't significant here, but I do hope the vote counting in the secret committees was a little more rigorous.

Buck "Marbux" Martin 
2008-04-10, 22:55


In regard to your article on the meeting in Oslo, a ping back:

Private deal to approve OOXML? More evidence surfaces

Circumstantial evidence is mounting of one or more private deals having been struck to approve DIS-29500 Office Open XML ("OOXML") as an international standard, a deal that may have played a role in several key national standardization bodies changing their voting position to approve OOXML.

[more]

http://www.universal-interop-council.org/node/29


Bruno 
2008-04-10, 22:57
@ Luc Bullen

"I hope that, in return, Microsoft will spend as much effort for improving the ODF text than IBM and so many other people spent for improving the OOXML text."

haha
IBM made no effort to "improve the OOXML text". They looked for problems so as to kill OOXML as an ISO candidate. That the problems were addressed, and thus the text "improved", was a mere side-effect (one that IBM wishes had not happened). There's a big difference between looking for problems in order to get them fixed (i.e. "constructive criticism") and looking for problems in order to kill the thing altogether. IBM did the latter. Do you really want Microsoft to "return" the favor and follow IBM's example by going out of their way to kill ODF (for example, by trying to block any future revision of ODF from obtaining ISO's blessing)? I doubt it.

Back to the main topic, it's good to see ISO taking control of OOXML. Given the extremely high level of scrutiny (more than any other standard in history, I'd guess), those involved know that they must be above board and must act in a fully transparent manner. This makes things harder to do in some ways, but will lead to a better outcome (just as OOXML's higher level of scrutiny led to a better standard (such scrutiny could certainly have done ODF some good).

MURATA (HoD of Japan in the BRM) 
2008-04-11, 02:32
>I hope it is not being overly patriotic to state that I believe that
>the decision reached by BSI on DIS 29500 was the most technically
>informed decison that took place on this planet, based as it was on
>a very great deal of very good work by British experts who gave up
>a lot of free time to contribute, whistling Colonel Bogey the while.

I agree. BSI did exteremely well before, during, and after the
BRM. But Japan will catch up next time!

Jesper Lund Stocholm 
2008-04-11, 07:07
Alex,

> FYI, there are ZERO implementations of ISO/IEC 26300 (ODF) which exactly conform to that
> specification, so far as I am aware.

Well, there are a large number of applications conforming to ODF - just as there is a large number of applications conforming to OOXML. The real question is if there are any applications that conform to the complete ODF, and I have not heard of a single one of those either.

You 
2008-04-11, 07:10
"One neutral XML expert, who I know for a fact took a very close technical look at DIS 29500 asked "what are they saying? that we are incompetent? that we do not have the right to decide for ourselves?". Well ... were they?"

Your insinuations about who is and who is not neutral and snide remarks about beard people put in context your behavior and your competence to do your job. It's really sad that have to resort to insults to answer their critics.

"This is a myth. There are many potential producers of 29500 markup. I myself have personally been involved with systems which produce Word XML (2003 flavor) for use in commercial systems. It's quite hard, but perfectly doable."

If they're potential it's not a myth. Word 2003 file format is not DIS29500 and neither is Word 2007 file format. So that statement is moot.

Every critic and every criticism has answered with contempt, snide remarks and "they did it too" kind of comments. It's wonderful that you all feel pretty good about yourselves, a pat or two on the back, smiles and congratulations. Job well done. All the while watching those beard, partial fools on outside in the rain.

Oh, How i love the smell of hypocrisy in morning!



Jesper Lund Stocholm 
2008-04-11, 07:40
You,

> Word 2003 file format is not DIS29500
> and neither is Word 2007 file format. So that statement is moot.

This accusation that Word 2007 documents are not DIS 29500-files keeps popping up - would you care to explain why?

nksingh 
2008-04-11, 09:05
@You, whoever You are:

No one asked those people to stand out in the rain, and standing in the rain is not likely to be an effective way of influencing ICT standardization. Neither is coming to a technical meeting with legal and emotional arguments, as was done around the BRM.

Producing software of higher quality and integration is likely to be far more influential.

hAl 
2008-04-11, 09:18
@Marbux
I already knew your legal background was weak when I read your comments on patent claims but now you are redefining the nature of the word 'evidence' as well.
Ask some questions and call the questions themselves evidence ?
You suggesting that there is a deal does not make for a deal nor for evidence of a deal either either.
what I would suggest is that you rename your piece. "No evidence surfaces but I claim it anyways"


Administrator (Alex Brown) 
2008-04-11, 13:11
@Carlos

You are being pessimistic. We can fix it.


@Andrew

Interesting stuff. I think you’re right about the difficulty of being an “interested amateur” observing this process. Some argue that everything is better done without trying to engage with people outside the standards communities…


@Felix

Ecma’s maintenance proposal has been consigned to the dustbin of history.


@Alan

The open letter wasn’t “aimed at” any “side”. I think you’re right in describing the letter as something “which nobody sensible would disagree with”.


@Marbux

Wowza! Fabulous stuff!


@Murata-san

I’m rather hoping there won’t be a “next time” (XPS anybody?)


@You

There’s not much content to your message but -- you’re right that the 2003 flavour Word XML is different from 29500 XML. Same kind of thing though. Smart XML-savvy developers can cope with it … to describe the task as “impossible” was just FUD.


- Alex.

hAl 
2008-04-11, 16:56
@Jesper
Well, there are a large number of applications conforming to ODF


Strictly speaking the ODF conformance clause is so weak that Office Open XML files (or any other files for that matter) could be considered in accordance with ODF document conformance.
ODF conformance clause for documents does not exclude any file. There are some very minimal requirement for applications that consume or produce ODF files but no real conformance clause for ODF documents.


Nadi 
2008-04-11, 17:12
"Work on interoperability/harmonization between document format standards"

This is a real myth, just like BSI has become one. It will never be possible. OOXML is not even consistent with itself. This is just more complete hog wash told to NBs to convience them to go YES. Just read threw all the BSI comments and other countries on the huge differences between ODF and OOXML and its impossible. OOXML is not designed for Harmonization.

" OOXML lacks the ability to specify a multi-row header that repeats across pages, where ODF does."

"OOXML lacks the following feature: Keep ratio feature for frames, where ODF does"

" OOXML lacks the following feature: Columns for frames/text-boxes,where ODF does "

" OOXML lacks the following feature: ability to assign different page colors throughout the document"

" OOXML lacks the following feature: Notes embedded in text-boxes, where ODF does"

"OOXML lacks the following feature: text-box can define the vertical alignment of text (top, center, bottom) where ODF does "

Read then all here: http://www.dis29500.org/?s=odf



Administrator (Alex Brown) 
2008-04-11, 18:02
@Nadi

As chair of the BSI committee that gathered those comments, I am very familiar with them!

Ultimately there are differences between ODF and OOXML as specified, usually fairly esoteric ones such as you mention. Going the other way OOXML has things ODF has not (such as more sophisticated mechanisms for change tracking). Part of any interop exercise is knowing what features do not map. Thought may then be given to aligning feature sets (or not) in future versions of the standards.

- Alex.

Rick Jelliffe 
2008-04-12, 03:35
Nadi: You wrote

" OOXML lacks the ability to specify a multi-row header that repeats across pages, where ODF does."

but actually it does.

There are about four or five other cases among the issues reported by multiple bodies which are similarly false, or which relate to implementation specifics rather than raw capabilities. I didn't bring this up publicly before the BRM because I didn't want to embarrass the various NBs and I had better things to do, but it seems to me that there was too much cut and pasting and too little verification by multiple NBs. Even Ecma missed this too.

Cheers
Rick Jelliffe

Alan Bell 
2008-04-12, 09:06
OK, so now OOXML is under ISO's stewardship they are going to harmonise it with ODF, just like France suggested to do so pre-approval. Harmonisation is a good thing. It gets the world to one standard which is more efficient in terms of implementation and promotes interoperability. What is the end point? One standard or two standards plus some xslt to flip between them?
If ISO do achieve this worthy goal of lining up the bits of paper what will compel Microsoft to actually do anything whatsoever to align their software with the new standard?
What will happen to documents created in the interim? It seems to me that right now OOXML is the last format anyone should use to save anything they want to keep.

Karsten 
2008-04-12, 10:08
"The ad hoc group shall be convened by Dr Alex Brown, as nominated by the UK National Body (BSi)."

Oh?! Don't you think that your consultancy for the British Library compromises your neutrality in matters of OOXML? At least your attacks on critics of misconduct in the ISO process assists that message. Either you cover misconduct or you let reform happen. Chose your side.

"Meanwhile some on-looking SC 34 people felt insulted. One neutral XML expert, who I know for a fact took a very close technical look at DIS 29500 asked "what are they saying? that we are incompetent? that we do not have the right to decide for ourselves?". Well ... were they?"

What is wrong about pointing out corruption of the ISO process and taking persons who participated in wrongdoings acccountable? You know very very very well that it is not about "incompetence" but professional misconduct. Who was it? Rick Jelliffe??

Why didn't you ask him: "Who is we"?

You know what happened in Norway. So why do you insult the Norwegian Committee that has any reasons to cry and shout on the streets? It is time to wipe out unsound practices at ISO. First of all ECMA has to lose its A channel. Second the directives need to be reformed. Also your ass is at stake and you know why.

Administrator (Alex Brown) 
2008-04-12, 11:02
@Karsten

> Oh?! Don't you think that your consultancy for the British Library compromises
> your neutrality in matters of OOXML?

Don't believe everything you read on the Web, Karsten. As it happens I am not contracted to the British Library (there are some lies in circulation to the contrary for consumption by the credulous). Wish I was though - I believe they have a lot to gain from the expertise and technology my company offers! Anyhow, the idea that contracting for the BL would represent an "interest" in favour of anything is (as I have said elsewhere) real tinfoil hat stuff.

> At least your attacks on critics of misconduct in the ISO process assists
> that message.

I don't remember "attacking" anybody. The furthest I go is to poke fun at idiocy. Of which there is rather a lot.

> Either you cover misconduct or you let reform happen. Chose your side.

As Patrick Durusau has wisely stated, standards don't have "sides".

> What is wrong about pointing out corruption of the ISO process

Err, because it doesn't exist? It's pretty sad that people are willing to throw accusations of "corruption" around based on conspiracy theories and prejudice.

Most complaints (groundless or not) including those in Norway are about national processes, which is nothing to do with "ISO" anyway.

When a group of people say "throw OOXML out of ISO" they are objecting to the legitimacy of a decision taken by many sovereign nations. That is an insult to many nations, and is particularly insensitve to the cultural sensibilities of non-Westerners.

> You know what happened in Norway. So why do you insult the Norwegian Committee

I do not remember insulting the Norweigan committee. I called Lars Marius "excellent" and have paid tribute to Steve Pepper in the past in this very blog. Though of course Steve is no longer a member of the committee.

> the directives need to be reformed

No argument on that one.

> your ass is at stake and you know why

err ...

- Alex.

Mark Dixon 
2008-04-13, 19:00
If you really think that ISO can take full control of OOXML, you're sadly mistaken. Microsoft will continue to do what they like with their file formats, just as they always have and if you don't like it, they will steamroller it through just like they did this time.

I hope you had a good holiday.

Geoffrey 
2008-04-13, 19:35
-1 on declaring OOXML a standard
+1 on keeping ODF as the standard

dj 
2008-04-13, 21:53
I've got some suggestions for members of ISO, which might help them avoid being subject to personal attacks in the future.

Try to treat other people honorably. If you have appointed technical experts to spend time studying a proposal, and you ignore what they tell you, they might get a bit irritated. Next time, try to listen to what they say.

Try to uphold the standards of your office, especially if you're in a position of global responsibility and decisions that you and your colleagues make will resonate across the years. Some people think that technical standards should represent the joint wisdom of some of the finest minds on the planet. If they see that the people in charge of this process are abrogating their responsibilities in favour of commerical interests, this might rankle somewhat.

When you allow terrible standards to be defined, don't be surprised that people who have to deal with those standards every day get a bit annoyed.

That's all.

Cees 
2008-04-14, 00:57
Dear Dr. Brown,
I'd like to start with an apology for my English, it's not my first language and therefore it's not easy to express myself correctly.

What I'm missing in this discussion (errr perhaps is flame war more appropriate) is the question why Microsoft wants OOXML to be a ISO standard. Standards are meant for interoperability (You want to be sure that your document can be opened and read by the person you send it to, or you want to be sure you can open your own document in 10 years, after you switched to (a new version of) software). And lets face it, Microsoft is not exactly known for 'these qualities'.

Microsoft wants to sell it's Office suite. She has done it the last 15 (?) years, and wants continuing to do so for the next decades to come. Microsoft hasn't tried to make the previous versions of her file formats ISO standard. She kept them as secret and as closed as possible to keep the competition out. So why the change? Microsoft wants competition ???

Well as a matter of fact she does! Only it's not to get new players on board, no it's the only way for Microsoft to stay on board herself. In Europe (and the rest of the world) more and more countries, cities etc. are leaving the MS Office ship. Governments can (and will) no longer be bound to 1 provider for the software. An increasing number of documents is stored digitally, and it' 'clumsy' if these documents are no longer readable after a switch to a new software provider (or an upgrade to Office 2018 :-) ).

So what Microsoft needed was a standard. She could ignore the thread, like she did with Linux and Apache 10 years ago, but times have changed ("You can blow out a candle. But you can't blow out a fire. Once the flames begin to catch. The wind will blow it higher" Peter Gabriel-Biko). And Microsoft knows. So if you can't beat them, join them : If Office uses an ISO standard for storing documents, then the 'interoperability' is no a reason to be excluded for government contracts (hé, ODF is an ISO standard, but so is our OOXML!).

In my opinion this is where ISO comes in. Microsoft needs a stamp. She needs an official standard for her document format. To get it from ECMA was no problem, but the problem is: who cares about ECMA? ISO is another cup of tea. ISO standards are taken seriously (at least for now; I'm afraid the DIS29500 approval damaged the ISO credibillity quite a lot. Fortunately for ISO is the media-attention fantastically low). With the ISO approval Microsoft has what is needs: her salespeople can tell (without having to lie) that OOXML is an international standard. If I'm correct changes are suggested to the current format before it becomes standard, so documents saved in OOXML by Office 2007 are not according to the ISO 295000 standard, but who cares? ISO wants to control maintenance? I'm sure that's fine by Microsoft, who says Office 2009 will be ISO 295000 compliant? Perhaps this whole "standardization" hype has blown over and multi-year contracts have been signed.... (And let's be fair: Microsoft doesn't have a good track record for being "standards compliant").

I sincerely hope that you don't have a "What am I doing??" moment (instead of a “What have I done” moment, by maintaining a standard nobody uses) Something like spending a lot of efforts in building a bridge, only to find out it's over the wrong river ;-)

Kind regards,
Cees

Mike Brown 
2008-04-14, 02:46
Alex,

How does ISO taking "full control" sit with Microsoft's Open Source Specification (OSP)? Microsoft has stated the the OSP will cover future versions of OOXML "as long as Microsoft participates in the revision process to completion".
http://osrin.net/2008/03/27/the-osp-wil ... -dis29500/

So, what happens if Microsoft pulls out of the "revision process" (however one defines that) for a particular version of ISO/IEC 29500 (OOXML)? Is the OSP then not applicable to that version, so leaving third party developers open to being sued by Microsoft?

Cheers,

- Mike

Joel Stobart 
2008-04-14, 08:38
Alex,

When do we (read NBs) get to see the OpenXML standard? I thought it was 30 days after the BRM? are we using days on Jupiter for it? How can anyone have voted on a text no-one has seen? surely, it could be entirely wrong? Incorrect use of "Should", "Could", "Would" could/would cause mayhem?

I think you already realise but I don't trust Microsoft. This is mainly because Microsoft was convicted in 2004 of "abusing its dominant position in the software market, causing a huge damage both on competitors and consumers". Like a man convicted of armed robbery; I wouldn't let them work in a bank for many years.

Could you comment on the name "openXML" for me? I always felt that XML was quite open enough?

kind regards,
Joel

ps. Your blog has a habit of eating my replies....

Administrator (Alex Brown) 
2008-04-14, 10:14
@dj

I think you're confusing the layers.

The members of ISO/IEC are nations, not individuals.

The dispute in Norway is between the national standards body and people on one of its technical committees.

I have no "office" with ISO/IEC, and certainly no say in Norweigan affairs. I'm a technical committee member: one of the many from whom convenors are from time-to-time selected.


@Cees

Yes - I assume Microsoft is behaving like a normal, functional corporation and is seeking to secure and enhance its long-term profitability in all it does; submitting OOXML for standardisation is in accord with this behaviour. The standardisation procedure does not, however, seek to take account of this particular goal in any way.

And so yes, the success of the 29500 project is a "win" for Microsoft, -- but it is also (as the nations' votes have shown) a win for the international community and, hence, for users.


@Mike

I'm not sure about the relevance of the OSP (though it is much talked of), but I understand it is very similar to equivalent documents from Sun and IBM.

ISO/IEC 29500 is a document that has ISO/IEC copyright, and MS have made an IPR disclosure to ISO/IEC. ITTF okayed this disclosure and national bodies are bound to accept their opinion. I am not a lawyer, but I trust ITTF (rather than the blog collective).

Practically speaking, if MS tried to raise legal impediments to usage of 29500 then they would, I'm sure, find themselves getting familiar very rapidly with the process of standards withdrawal. Such actions would also be incredibly stupid.


@Joel

I understand the new text of 29500 was delivered on time to SC 34, and now ITTF are sitting on it -- I guess because they're checking it. As you can read in the SC 34 resolutions, we are calling for it to be released ASAP.

NBs have lots standards document experts, and so mastering the effect of the BRM edits on the text was no insurmountable problem. Rex is also a pretty seasoned editor.

MS being convicted -- yup, big companies have a tendency towards monopoly that government needs to control. Interestingly,
it is possible to see the 29500 project as an aspect of that very process of government control.

As to the name "OpenXML". Well, "Office Open XML" is a very bad name but "OpenXML" is even worse. If it really must be elided than I think "OfficeXML" is better. Still, I avoid all this by calling it (more properly) "OOXML" or - since I am a standards wonk - "twenty-nine-five-hundred" !

- Alex.

hAl 
2008-04-14, 14:31
@Cees
Interoperability is just what you are getting.
Now the most used Office programs will be using an interoperable ISO format.
As ODF is not com patible with current Office func tionality and not backwards compatible with Office document there is now way that Microsoft would have used it as a deafult format for their office suite and effectivfly it would have been a situation where most Office files were produced in a propriety format again.
Now using an ISO format will be the norm as in 5 years most files will be produced in an ISO format.
It will become a requirement in things like procurement.
This will make sure that MS will need to use an ISO format in future as well and guarantees interoperability into the future.

@Mike
As Ecma is a liaison for ISO and Microsoft is member of the Ecma TC they will likely be participants.
Unless ISO would do something ridiculously drastic to the format (like removing drawingML) there would be no reason for Microsoft not to support the format. As the format is extendible there even is room for adding functionality that ISO would not want to add. However it is likely that ISO will want to keep compatibility with MS Office functionality. They might however disagree more on the way changes neeed to be implemented and on the timepath than on the changes in functionality themselves


p.s.
Your blog does have serieus issues as when it fails to accept a reply for some capthca related issue I am unable to return to the reply and correct it. All text is lost :(

Nadi 
2008-04-14, 17:19
By all accounts from the this post and comments in this thread, OOXML is not a standard. Yes, a few in the TC34 and the tarnished BSI TC members pushed and keep pushing an agenda which is not likely to happen and sold the world a brigde crossing over the wrong river. All we have here is a spec with potentials, expectations from NBs and promises of tranparency which most likely will never happen.

@Alex and Rick

Those comments from NBs I left where just random, there are atleast 80 more. And we also know that OOXML does things ODF does not. How many are there? It would make interop more impossible that it already is.

About BSI and Myths. Are all the technical comments from BSI a Myth now especially the ones pertaining to interop:

“One of the central requirements for interoperability is independence from any particular type of source content.”

If this is the case, it seems logical that a central requirement would be for clear standards-based specification of source content, such that a future consuming application, unknown to the producer, has clear expectations of the valid range of content found within a conforming OOXML file. Interoperability between applications requires rules that impose constraints, whereas “independence from any particular type of source content” implies a lack of determining structure. If a conformant OOXML file can contain any type of source content, conforming consumers will have to support any type of source content - which is clearly impossible.

Administrator (Alex Brown) 
2008-04-14, 17:57
@Nadi

The line of text you quote is from Ecma 376, and BSI objected to it ("This claim is dubious ... ").

Ecma removed all the text BSI objected to. However this was not considered a good enough response -- but at the BRM three significant textual changes were made which advanced the definition of interoperability to a satisfactory level.

1. Conformance classes in general were created, to define better what parts of the spec applications conformed to.

2. A number of 'reference standard format' were enumerated in the text to facilitate interop.

3. A whole new concept of 'Application Descriptions' was introduced into the text (the old bugbear about copy being a conformant OOXML application was thus resolved).

The last two of these were a joint Portugal-UK initiative (ah, Europe's oldest alliance shows its worth!)

Do try and keep up at the back ...

- Alex.

Andrew Sayers 
2008-04-15, 04:05
Alex,

I can definitely see how some people would rather be rid of the incendiary and intolerant aspects of recent debate. My personal instinct is that it's one of those situations where it takes 10 times as much heat to generate twice as much light, and you just have to decide whether it's worth the cost. As I suggested before, it's also my instinct that the good old days of private deliberation are gone and not coming back, so paying the cost and getting the value might be your only option. Then again, I can't think of a logical basis for those instincts, which is often a sign that I'm missing something critical.

I think I might be able shed a little more light on some people's anger though. In short, a perception has been allowed to build up that irregularities in the process have all fallen in Microsoft's favour, never against it.

For those of us that came to the process with no understanding of ISO procedures, we've learned mostly piecemeal through blogs explaining what happens next (or grinding some axe about what happened last). These blogs always give a simplified view of the process, because the minutia would take too long to explain. So when those minutia turn out to be pivotal (e.g. the vote of Norway's technical committee is only advisory, not mandatory), people feel that the rules have been discredited, and fall back to the all-purpose backup.

But because blame is an attempt to impose order on chaos, there still needs to be a pattern - if there were no pattern, people would be sighing about incompetence instead of screaming about bias. In this case, the pattern has been that the blogs predict decisions to go against DIS 29500, and then the actual decision goes in its favour. Clearly some of this is due to bloggers misunderstanding the process or mixing fact with opinion, but I find it very difficult to think of an example where anyone was confidently predicting a decision to go for DIS 29500 that ultimately went against it.

It seems to me that the solution to the above problem is two-fold: correct false facts and give examples of misunderstandings that misled people in the other direction.

In regards to the first, I think your regular comments in other blogs have had a good effect at correcting facts - much better than the effect would have been if you'd made the same observations in blog posts. I would encourage others in the standards communities to leave polite-but-firm comments correcting bloggers on details, so that bloggers can help control inaccurate expectations.

In regards to the second, I think it might be helpful if you (or someone else within the standards community) could talk a little about decisions that put up roadblocks for DIS 29500 that weren't predicted by bloggers, or otherwise showed that the devil in the details can poke at anyone.

- Andrew

Nadi 
2008-04-15, 23:13
HI Alex

Is good to see old oldest alliances at work Portugal-UK. But really surprising is all the very well established NBs in the British Commenwealth, all sub-cultures of BSI voting NO or abstaining: N.Z., S.A., Canada, Australia, India. And we know BSI's vote!

domf 
2008-04-19, 12:05
Quote Martin Bryan:
The disparity of rules for PAS, Fast-Track and ISO committee generated standards is fast making ISO a laughing stock in IT circles. The days of open standards development are fast disappearing. Instead we are getting “standardization by corporation”, something I have been fighting against for the 20 years I have served on ISO committees. I am glad to be retiring before the situation becomes impossible. I wish my colleagues every success for their future efforts, which I sincerely hope will not prove to be as wasted as I fear they could be.
End Quote.

Nothing more to say. Have fun with the interoperability group. Always good to have 2 standards which are incompatible. VHS<->Beta, Blu-Ray<->HD-DVD, differing lengths of the mile, differing rail gauges, NTSC<->PAL and a myriad of other incompatible standards.
Well, i guess the more standards, the better. Imagine all the missed business opportunities if standards would build on each other instead of needing more people to be paid to harmonize them or build variations to accommodate to each.

Arbeitsbeschaffungsmassnahme for some, Kopfschmerzen for many.


Joel Stobart 
2008-04-22, 09:09
Alex,

This is in response to the griffin publishing blog, validation errors article. But that website wont let me comment.

I would like to suggest something to you on why people (like me) are fearful. It is by way of an analogy.

CIFS was published as a standard by Microsoft. No-one has ever reached the documented standard. Fine. No-one has reached the html standard, css, and many more besides. That does not in of itself indicate a bad standard. The problem is that <b>no-one is trying to reach the standard</b>. All that people are trying to do is interoperate with the Microsoft version. Microsoft like to add features to CIFS so that they can stay ahead of the market. They never aim to make there products fully compatible.

"In general, the Samba team will mimic a Microsoft bug rather than try to fix it within Samba. This is done to prevent the kind of problems that occur when Windows clients do not encounter the bug they expect." - http://www.linux-mag.com/id/302 [registration required]

I believe that the market will have to chase Microsoft, and Microsoft will chase new features, not standards accuracy. Much as it has done with CIFS over the years. The standard could end up a marketing exercise to enable entry into lucrative government contracts.

- Joel



Mike Brown 
2008-05-15, 21:43
Where's the final text of the OOXML spec, Alex?

Cheers,

- Mike

Administrator (Alex Brown) 
2008-05-16, 12:36
@Mike

> Where's the final text of the OOXML spec, Alex?

With ITTF, by all accounts. The UK, along with a number of other NBs, is unhappy about the delay in its release.

- Alex.

Mike Brown 
2008-05-19, 00:45
Thanks for the response, Alex.

By the most generous date calculations that I've seen, it's now over two weeks since it should have been released. Do you agree that it is overdue? If so, what does this do to the process?

Cheers,

- Mike

Administrator (Alex Brown) 
2008-05-19, 12:12
@Mike

It should have been distributed on 29th March, so it is late.

As to what this does to the process -- my guess is: not a lot. ITTF can make exceptional rulings if they wish, on the authority of the Secretaries General. More widely the delay will make NBs unhappy and increase the likelihood of there being some real will for abolition of accelerated standardisation in JTC 1, and quite possibly for even more radical reform of the Directives. Let's hope so.

- Alex.



Arne 
2008-07-23, 04:29
The "local spat" in Oslo was about the way in which the vote was conducted. People were sent out of the room until only Microsofts representative and StatoilHydro's representative remained in the room. Nobody else was deemed to be relevant. Then they voted.

Guess what? StatoilHydro is one of Microsoft's largest customers in Norway.

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